My posting on the political realities of Malaysia, particularly the position of the Malays, has led to various reactions. Lim Kit Siang is unhappy with what he regarded as my insinuation, in his words, that there was a secret agreement between himself, Anwar Ibrahim and Hadi Awang. but he is entitled to his views as in any democracy. He has used words in his statement that I did not use.
Lawyer Haris Ibrahim has also given his perspective of the issue, saying he disagreed with my stand that non-Muslim groups should stay away from Islamic issues. I had blogged that non-Muslim NGOs should stay away from the fatwas on yoga and tomboyism, as these religious rulings did not affect non-Muslims. Unlike issues like gender segregation for supermarket check-outs, concerts and dress codes, which infringe on non-Muslim rights, I said it was not politically wise to be involved. Haris has his comments and I think it is good to have differences of opinion. Haris has argued well and I have high regard for him.
This is what a discourse is all about, we need not agree with each other, but as a general rule, I think we are mature enough to be able discuss such issues without putting down each other, resorting to name calling or sounding like a bully.
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49 comments:
Malaysians' comprehension of the English language still has a long way to go.
Why get involved in religious matters that do not concern us or infringe on our (non-Muslim) liberties.
There are laws and if others want to make every dang thing their business, go ahead! As for us we are not stupid.
Want to go to jail? Go ahead!
Sdr Harris dan Kit Siang,
And berdua juga mempunyai blog masing - masing dan setiap
Hari ada juga banyak isu yang anda ulas. Inilah dikatkan
Kebebasan bersuara TETAPI kita jangan terlalu angkuh apabila
Cuba utarakan pandangan kita. Ini bukanya medan politik
Tetapi medan untuk bertukar pandangan dan fikiran. Setipa orang mempunyai
Pandangan masing - masing dan kita perlu belajar untuk
Menerimanya dgn hati yang terbuka. Kalau tak suka, atau tidak
Setuju, sampaikanlah dgn penuh beradab!
Apa yang disampaikan oleh Datuk Chun Wai ada pro
Dan kontranya.kenapa Kit Siang teralu emosional ?
Kenapa mereka asyik nak menikam orang sahaja?
Adakah mereka anggap diri mereka hanya betul ?
Apa yang dikatakan oleh Datuk Chun Wai dalam pandanganya
Ada realiti yang sebenar. Kita perlu bersikap terbuka untuk menerima
Teguran dan pandangan.
Dalam isu ini , peranan masyarakat bukan islam
Telah diperincikan dengan skop - skop yang tertentu. Bacalah baik - baik sebelum nak
Komen .
Kenapa Kit Siang sukar menerima realiti kehidupan?
Isu agama dan peranan masyarakat bukan islam
Telah dijelaskan dan kenapa Kit Siang cuba untuk Spin isu ini ?
Apa pun , saya berpandangan setiap insan mempunyai batasanya
Tersendiri dalam semua aspek . Janganlah kita bertindak secara angkuh.
"This is what a discourse is all about, we need not agree with each other, but as a general rule, I think we are mature enough to be able discuss such issues without putting down each other, resorting to name calling or sounding like a bully"
kah kah u made me laugh..you must have forgotten things you have said about pas leaders and dsai
Kit Siang is too emotional and sensitive, but then that is just the way he is, and it is OK. It takes all kind to make up the world. As long as he keeps fighting for justice and fairness, we are Ok with his sensitiveness!
I voted for PKR in my constituency. But I think it is OK for DAP,PKR and PAS to have some agreement to work together. There is nothing wrong with that. The other option would be for these three parties to slug it out, and lose to BN.
Kit Siang, if there is an agreement of that sort, it is OK. No need to get so uptight. We will still support Pakatan Rakyat. In fact the voters would have expected that the three parties PAS, DAP, PKR would need to have some sort of agreement to work together. No need to go WCW bashing in an attempt to "hide" the agreement.
PR supporter.
Beggar Wong,
U just know how to talk cock!
What is your contribution to the society and Malaysia compare to YB Lim Kit Siang?
If u encourage and promote freedom of speech, just publish out all those comments which are against your opinion!
Don't just like a little poor guy living in the world of denial!
Beware of your post in Star! Ong Tee Keat will promote others to replace u very very soon! Watch Out!
Wai, I am very disappointed with your insinuations and innuendo. As an experienced journalist you should ahve worded your sentences in a politically correct manner. Instead you chose the easy way out by mixing innuendo with half truths and myths, mixed with perceptions. You owed Taikor Kit Siang an apology.
Further to the comment made by People, if you are Hainanese, your position in the Star is safe. Your MCA President is now surrounding himself with trusted Hainanese people. Even the Liason chief of NS got a Hainanese to lobby for him. Poor Chua Soi Lek!
Dear Wong,
I share your views on the NON effect of the fatwas on non muslims.
As the fatwas do not affect the rights of non muslims , I fail to understand why non muslims should protest and demonstrate against the recent fatwa on tomboyism and yoga.
If any of the fatwas affect non muslims rights or freedom, then by all means they can protest.
lIVE AND LET LIVE !
Most major religions in the world urge their followers to respect ALL human beings no matter their creed , colour or caste.Some even say we must respect all living beings including animals as they are a creation of God.
Hence the reason why u see why many non muslims commenting on fatwas slapped on their muslim brothers and sisters.
according to these religions, your business is our business if it affects the human race.
Kindly respect the teachings of these religions before asking others to respect the teachings of Islam.
Dear Dato,
U have started something with regards to the interference of non-muslims into islamic theory.
U right the non-muslims should stay with this.
V should respect other races belief n teachings.
Don't worry YB Kit siang a always been like this b4.
Everything which not involving him also he wil create a big 'hu-hah'.
Yb Kit siang stay away from this.
Don't interfere,U must understand u 2 not a muslim.
Always..........
Pakatan Rakyat MPs are emotinal especially DAP leader.
Should understand wat al this bout.
Analyse first!
Dear Dato,
There must b an understanding between al the bloggers.
I think Kit siang needs more polishing from u Dato.
He seems to b very naive.
Update him!
Whatever being discussed n in the Islamic religion n belief should b questioned by the non-muslim.
So Kit Siang stay away from tis!
Dear Wong,
Kit Siang is right that the said Agreement has been announced to the media much earlier, ie as a press statement on 8 Sept 2008.
He has also mentioned about the said agreement between the 3 parties in his blog on the same day.
When you mentioned in your blog the words " none of us have heard until now", it implies that the agreement has been kept a secret from the public and media until NOW. But this is not so as Kit Siang has mentioned about it in his blog and it has been given to the media as a press statement more than 2 months ago.
In that sense Kit is rightwhen he says that there is an insinuation on your part that it is a secret agreement between Anwar, Hadi Awang and himself.
I believe it is unintentional on your part as you may have miss the press release or did not read his blog.
Try to understand Chun Wai n his writting b4 Saying anything.
Kit Siang just sit n watch.
One Good Advise Listen Dato Wong Chun Wai.
Stay away from al this v non-muslim got nothing to say here!
this so called editor is an embarassment. Claimed the wrong news as facts and now cannot backtrack just sing song here and there.
Very similar to Utusan. Trait of BN i guess.
I think WCW like many who have been under such a long period of indoctrination by UMNO/BN will always think in terms of we take care of our own and "they" should take care of their own. Aisay..its always been that way mah! Don't try to be hero lah. Right WCW???
Unfortunately, this creates a problem of where do Malaysians come in? To say that only Muslims should comment on Muslim issues and non-Muslims please hands off is again retreating to a polarised mind set which in the long run will lead to a very divided Malaysian nation. What if the rich and connected Muslims come out with religious rulings which enslave the Muslim "have nots"? After all, in history, religion (whether Muslim, Christian etc) have many times been conveniently interpreted and selectively applied to benefit the rich and powerful. So do we keep quiet and just say, "well... that's their religion and its their problem" even if we are of the same nation and should therefore be sharing the same destiny? Many issues on religion also transcends the religions boundaries and starts encroaching into basic human rights. So it is not just a religious issue...it transcends religion and affects all human beings. Ah..I can hear some muttering that..."Aiyah that one western values mah. We are Asians mah.." ...puhleeezz
So if a Muslim says their believers can stone apostates to death and we non Muslims say.."well that's their religion mah." Is that so? Does anyone have the right to take another persons life just on the premise of a religious belief?
I think we should stop this "us and them" mind set and look at all things from a Malaysian or basic human rights perspective if we ever hope to have a wonderful and united Malaysia and which will be able to survive in this evermore globalised world. Did we say its easy to do this? Of course not. But starting with a polarised mind set will mean we will get further and further apart from the start.
WCW's type of mind set is typical of those who are sympathetic to MCA and such parties. Pragmatic perhaps but in the end it just leads to disaster. Oop sorry, Star is owned by MCA right. Hmmmmm.....
Come on. Lets stop this racial polarised thinking and start thinking as Malaysians and basic human beings.
As you say WCW, "for the sake of our children and our children's children."
hey nobody WCW,
Think before you pen someting on issues that matters ofter people....
DUFUSS, now you're in hot soup...
sam
I am surprised at Kit Siang's posting on your coment. He has clearly overreacting and imputing meaning you never intend and than using that to slam you...very unprofessional methods. I wonder why Kit Siang is so brasive and panicky...he should have a thick skin by now after nearly 40 years in politics to take some criticism. Bad for his health to be so jumpy...relax la Kit! Learn how to be comfortable with power and held Guan Eng also...he is getting so rabid!
LKS is calling you names!!
so, do you have prove or just bluff? this is the real issue.
Show your prove or apolozies. There is no two ways about it.
address the issue.
sorry to disagree....but it is not a matter of YB LKSiang being entitled to his 'views'....what was written was not true "that none of us have heard of until now"...from WCW's blog.From LKS's blog..."the joint statement Sept.8th...was issued to all media,including the STAR.I put it up on my Blog the same day." .. so it was not a JOINT AGREEMENT that none of us have heard of..it was not about being entitled to one's "view"...it was just not TRUE.
Been reading your Blogs and sensing a New Malaysia emerging and being reflected in your writing..appreciate it a lot and we do step on toes in the process but as you mentioned...not get emotional and respect different views.
Well,we want we non racist leader like LKS. He voice out his concern as a true Malaysian leader and fight without boundry for any race.
Obama's the President of America and here in Malaysia ,when a non muslim fight for the cause which touch on race...he's being labelled as panicky...what the hell are you fellow Malaysians were thinking?
Kalau kita nak pemimpin yang hanya memihak dan cuma menolong dari yang sama kaum....habislah Malaysia...Baik biar BN yang menang saja...
Fikir-fikirkanlah,semua rakyat Malaysia,kita mahu keharmonian yang kini dikecapi oleh Amerika Syarikat yang selama ini asyik dikutuk-kutuk oleh pemimpin-pemimpin BN sebagai racist ?
Kita mahu satu situasi di negara kita sendiri seperti ornag-orang putih yang mengundi Obama dan terus menlenyapkan isu racial didalam buku sejarah selama-lamanya?
Lim Kit Siang will always be Lim Kit Siang. Barks a lot, talks a lot.
Have you noticed how quiet Anwar Ibrahim has been lately?
Lim Kit Siang is doing all his dirty work. In fact he is doing all the dirty work for Anwar at Pakatan Rakyat.
WCW wrote "This is what a discourse is all about.."
WCW in his earlier article "The realities of Malaysian politics" wrote "Anwar Ibrahim has revealed a signed document between himself, DAP's Lim Kit Siang and PAS' Hadi Awang that none of us have heard of until now..". If WCW had written "that I have not heard of.. ",then he would have only exposed his ignorance. By claiming "that none of us have heard of..", he had self-proclaimed himself, without our consent, as our spokesman, and also, without our consent, told a lie on our behalf because there are many among us who have heard of such a document.
I would expect a Group Chief Editor of The Star newspaper to understand that telling lies is not discourse. I also expect that a Group Chief Editor of The Star newspaper should know better than to self-proclaim himself as a spokesman for ALL OF US without our consent and agreement.
I am a Christian ( and used to be a Buddhist). I think it is fair that Muslims donot want non-Muslims to interfere with their beliefs and practices. Similarly we do not want others to interfere with our own beliefs. For example, a Sikh would not want others to tell them why they should or should not have a turban, for whatever the reason. Similarly, Taoists and Buddhists would not like it if people tell them to stop burning incense and paper in public due to the smoke and fire hazard. And I don't think the Christians would like it if people tell them to stop carolling in shopping malls. And I don't think the HIndus will love it if people tell them to stop having Thaipusam procession due to the traffic jams they cause. While the mosques' loud speakers shatter the tranquility of the non-Muslims, the same can be said about the din caused by the drums from the Chinese lion dance and the Hindu Thaipusam processions. We should all respect each other's religion, and tolerate the little inconvenience each religion cause to the others. Afterall the benefits outweigh the inconveniences. The diverse religions give Malaysia a colorful scene to draw in tourists. Also it gives each of us some relief from our own religion's dogmas. It is always the politicians and the politically-active religious heads that play up issues that cause all the tension in the country. Left alone, the people of all races and religion would have gotten on just fine.
Penangite
Bro Wong, The response from DAP stalwart is not very suprising. Lim Kit Siang at his very best will accept Bahasa Malaysia as a second language and Islam must be confined to the mosque. A leader who refuses to acknowlege that malays are majority and their rights are protected under the constitution, he or she will not go anywhere. LKS has been an opposition leader for the past 20 years. Give him another 20 years then he will remain as what he is today. This is politcal reality in this country. The recent poll shows that more then 60% Malays are gravitated towards BN, more specifically UMNO, compared to 30% Chinese. Anotherwords, neither DAP nor PKR nor PAS is trusted by the Malays. For inhomogeneous nation this is clearly a problem. The Chinese needs malay support more then the other way round. This is hard political reality that DAP, MCA or GERAKAN has to accept.
Kit Siang, you are always so hot tempered and sensitive. You got to take things easy a bit and watch your blood pressure. I respect you as a fine justice fighter. But some things cannot be fought with hard blows. Sometimes you need to use taichi or aikido, where softer touches have a better effect. My 30 years in corporate sales and marketing dealing with the press has taught me that it is not good to always go head on with people that buy ink by the truckload (the Press). You will always do better to win over the press to your side. It is better to let them use their ink and paper to help you than to create enemies with the press. Even though the STAR is owned by MCA, if the people there have bought into your ideals, they would be more inclined to give you neutral news than negative news. Wong Chun Wai has given your son Lim Guan Eng a lot of positive news,and it is not fair to think of him as a highly anti-PR person. If you read the comments in his blog, you can see that he gets cursed at and bombarded by both BN and PR supporters, and he gets the same crude treatment from both Muslims and non-Muslims. Malaysians have gotten to be a very sensitive lot these days.
Penangite
Talk about democracy when you decided not to post any of the comments that speak the truth about your selfishness, your ego, you self centered bastard thinking...blah blah blah that;s just too much to write about you and so little time. Who gives a fuck about paying extra for Star during weekends only to be used as a scrap paper? I pity those newspaper vendors who display The Star which is taking up their space and making so little profits from unsold papers. i just wish that Star stop killing the environment by printing waste!
Quote: Love your neighbour as thyself. We reprove out of love. We show concern out of love. But there are lines to toe.
Loving your neighbour doesn't mean you become a busybody. There're no Muslim NGOs seeking help from non-Muslims. So to give assistance/show solidarity out of love doesn't apply here. Pure busybody and something we ought not to do.
I don't see Cina jaga Cina or anything like that. If it's common issues like education/employment and the like, then by all means show your displeasure.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinions. Why is it that only the seemingly BN-aligned people are wronged when they speak their minds?
i totally agree that non muslims should not campur tangan in islamic issues when they dont really affect their lives. first and foremost most of the non muslims do not have a thorough knowledge of the religion and secondly, religion is something best left to those who practice it, it is between them and GOD. why should we campur tangan?
SHAKING HEADS
So has it now come to the point of i-look-after-my-own-backyard-you-look-after-your-own? First of all, a fatwa on yoga, which is a form of exercise is rather absurd. Did it cause our young to become decadent? Is there a danger of addiction? Will it cause bodily harm to anyone practicing it? What I personally think is that it is absolutely normal to voice out against incompetent organisation that propagates idiocy.
Furthermore, contrary to what you're posting, you have indeed posted assumptions and half-baked ideas in between half-truths. I begin to wonder if you have created your own reality and living in it. Delusion is a dangerous thing.
WCW, I hope you're serious. Because right now, you don't seem to be the non-partisan writer you claimed to be.
Dear Mr Wong.
I would like to point out that Africa's apartheid policy did not affect non-black africans much either.
Do you think it was wrong for the entire world to protest these atrocities?
It's a totally different situation, I know, but I hope that you see my point. Basically, all for one and one for all, even if it doesn't effect your own self.
In fact, many people point out that the chinese community are rather selfish and have the kiasu attitude of "mind your own business".
Shouldn't we try to get involved in liberty for EVERYONE, not just our own selfish selves?
I disagree with you, wong chun wai. I do agree with Haris, and I think you are being a bit over-sensitive on the issue regarding Lim Kit Siang being irrational.
http://thedandelions.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/wong-chun-wai-faces-off-lim-kit-siang-mahatir-faces-off-najib/
wong, no doubt u're the puppet for the Umno/BN controlled media..it is a disgrace for you as the star editor for not knowing about so called "secret agreement"..i think everyone following LKS's blog are aware of that..what is the motive behind? or is your political knowledge is too shallow??..and i dont see any benefit other than "praise" ur boss..bear in mind LKS is fighting for the bettermen of your own children/grand-children..LKS is not happy because u as a SUN Editor providing a false information and misled the people and indirectly defame him..what have you done for Malaysia?debate with LKS?but u're not up to that standard..
Dato Wong,
If, as Micheal Gaw has indicated in an earlier comment, that YB Lim Kit Siang had publicised this "agreement", is it possible that you had made an error ?
If so, as a good journalist, should you then publish a correction ? I mean, it isn't a secret or that " none of us have heard until now", so just make that correction to your post and make nice with the party affected by the error.
Yes, we should be matured enough to have differences of opinion and accept it but if it comes to an issue of fact, one must take responsibility to ensure the correctness of those facts, even if one was unaware of the facts at the point of writing.
wong,
since when you became a muslim ass licker? seems like you win alot of support from the Hadarians here. Why not be one ya'self?
hello WCW,
cant you see the current situation is bad enough?
why do you need to come out with such statement tO INCITE AND IGNITE the debate?
dont you have nothing else to write about?
if you are really TWISTING facts, then i dont think you deserved be sitting at where you are.
if you want the star to follow Utusan to be a running dog, then we shall boycott the star.
Aiya WCW, you are always caught in the middle. UMNO and PAS throw bric bracs at you, and DAPand PKR people also throw bric bracs at you. Muslims get angry at you. And non-Muslims also get angry at you! You are getting to be a "popular" punching bag from all sides. Why? Because you chose to start printing middle ground stuff. It seems that these days Malaysians like to tilt to one side,and all are getting more sensitive and extremists. Maybe you should just tilt one side and be bias. That way you will get one side to support you, and only the other side will throw bric bracs. This is the reality in Malaysia today. People do not want to reason anymore.
Middle Ground
YB Lim Kit Siang, u should attack pacifically the blogger.U have forgotten that u r a malaysian.
U represent a democratic party wat is this.
Just don't aatack other peoples view.
U want to say something do it boldly.Wake up Lim Kit Siang!
Political stability n other issues concerning political scenario in the country s still.....going here n there.
As a member of parliament of Ipoh Timur,Lim Kt Siang should be aware of what he s saying.He won with a majority in his consituency but contributing factors are not his race alone there other races also voted for him.
LKS u r one of the component in Pakatan Rakyat Don't demolish it.
From what u r doing now it seems u r not having a good relationship with u r component parties with PAS n PKR.Now a question already arise r u truly representing all the races despite their religion n belief?
So sad Why s this happening?
Stay Away from al this.
I think now malaysian r still in the political dilemma after March 8 general election.
As a commentator,LKS if ur going to continue with ur behaviour u wil never grow ur end result wil b always in opposition.
Don't forget ur political roots.
What The blogger WCW saying s correct!correct!
U do ur work, i do my business.
Well said New Malaysia blogger WCW!
No Matter what u r doing something good for the whole nation n all malaysian.
Not too worry bout people like LKS he wil always wrong with his remarks n too emotional.
I think he don't understand what s 'New Malaysia'.
With all due respect Datuk, you need to fact-check before you comment. That's journalism 101. You most definitely need to practice ethical journalism.
Ordinary understanding of your words " none of us have heard until now", does carry a negative connotation that the agreement betw LKS, AI and Hadi Awang was less than open and public. Do look up the thesuarus to see if this approximates the concept of secret(ive)
Coming from the GEIC of our country's widest circulated paper, the impact of public perception based on how you framed this issue (a negative impression of concealment and therefore, possibly intention of deceiving the public on the part of LKS, AI and Hadi Awang) is indeed significant.
Note - public perception doesn't necessarily conform fully to legal standards.
Discourse isn't about casting aspersions, Datuk. It's about putting forth reasoned arguments, Haris' post being the exemplar here.
To cast aspersions is to put some one down too, don't you think? IMO, LKS's response is simply a human one.
Are you somehow suggesting that while the GEIC of Malaysia's widest circulated paper has the license to cast negative aspersions on anyone, his targets (for want of a better word, pardon me I'm no journalist) OTOH, have no right to respond without being called a bully?
IMO, journalists, what more someone of your journalistic stature, so used to throwing bricks at politicians (rightly or wrongly) in the name of public interest, should not be so thin-skinned and take it on the chin!
Your proper response as a pro and key player in the media industry, I believe is to address, in an intelligent and rational manner the facts he highlighted to support his somewhat strong response. Not cry about being bullied, called names or badly done by. That's plain cowardly
-wan-
Michael Gaw said:
"I share your views on the NON effect of the fatwas on non muslims."
This is plain naive. Please read Helen Ang's comment in Haris' post:
------
"What if the non-Muslim yoga teacher is accused of complicity in furthering Muslims engaging in an illegal activity? What if the health & fitness centre has its operating licence suspended for the same, and fined or forced to shut down?
[...]
"Haris, if we take this yoga contortion to an extreme bend, then I believe the law provides a jail term for the yoga instructor who leads Malays astray from Islam – the charge of ‘religious deviancy’ is why there is this fatwa consideration to begin with, correct?"
Haris' comment: "Helen, You are spot on."
------
Your suggestions to protest if fatwa infringes on rights of others, is at best naive. At worst, it borders on not just ignorance, but - pardon the expression - sheer stupidity.
Do consider the numerous instances where authorities have outright abused their powers to commit further injustices and violation of human rights to silence peaceful and patriotic protestors, even whilst singing the national anthem!
-wan-
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